Interesting is ... definitely one way to put it.

It's quite a jump eh.

Well, leave it at that, i've bought and sold many a character this way for profit, the only reason CCPGäó are smiling at skill trading is they will be able to sell the skill extractor on the new eden store and make more money, why not raise the monthly subscription and put this stupid idea to bed.

Now someone tell me with a straight face that EVE is doing well financially.

They will now get money from extractors, sooo....

One question for Devs though; I know your mockup in the blog is just that but you are turning skills that are prerequisites for other skills into a TSP - Is this to be a thing? You can sell prerequisite skills?

Well by the sounds of it they had this planned whatever the community said. I mean feb release wow so quick how long did it take to sort 0.0 oh wait its still not done most of its still blue and it didn't involve -ú$-ú$.


Gl all.

Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?

My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-

$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots

$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200

My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum

yeah but wasn't training that "useless skill" your choice to train ...until you realised that it was actually useless ?

its part and parcel of what eve is ...imo

well actually it does ... the learning skills as an example .....but we got recompensed for those particular ones .

Is having an Eveonline subscription a prerequisite for playing Valkyrie on Occulus Rift?

You can't see how this system can be gamed?
1 account, 3 character slots - 3 X 50 mil SP characters specialized to suit your needs (even 3 X 80 mil SP chars is possible if you have the isk - Or $'s) - Never need to train again and can potentially fly everything from a T2 frigate to a Titan.
Prospect sort of detracts from having 1 high skilled char, why would you bother when lower skilled specialized characters can be so easily created.

What happens to dual character training certificates now? Do they have their (Aurum) price reduced substantially to be viable alongside TSP's - Or will you need to pay for dual character training as well as TSP's if it is a second character on the same account you want to train?

still irrelevant ...as its still your choice to train any particular skill ..wether you utilise it or not is your choice due to your particular playing style ...personally im trained to dread pilot lvl 5 ..but have never used it ... but at the time it was a requirement of my particular corp ... ho hum .... im a carrier pilot ..

lol ..I think your sort of missing my point and we are both getting off topic alas whatever skill you train is not essentially irrelevant . back in 2003/4 I elected to train all the E/W skills that were then available ...knowing full well that the only available ship at that particular time was the blackbird ...and tbh ...it was hopeless ...and everybody mocked me ...and lo and behold E/w all of a sudden ...was the next big thing ...and to a point still plays a semi major role in most fleet events ... so who was the mug ...me sitting on the already trained skills ..or those that thought they were worthless ... you decide .

wasn't that an "optional skill train" rather than a compulsory skill train ? .... that was your decision to train it .learning skill were ...compulsory

What, exactly, is the tipping point here regarding a goon RMT machine? Why would it be now, and not back when Technetium was hemorrhaging ISK in untold quantity?

If you had read it: isk isn't a limiting factor, SP is. Also Isk can be legitimately gotten via plex so there's a lot of competition in that. Alliances like yours have so much isk there's nothing for them to spend it on, it's wasted pretty much so this SP trading is one of the few good options to syphon some off that away. You simply need to create the demand and then supply them.

1 lure newbie into alliance
2 do the "well, if you could fly a [insert ship/module] BC then you could join in these awesome fights"
3 sell SP
4 ....
5 profit

It seems you don't want to read, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Lets say I have 2 trillion and (thus) I really don't give a fck about isk, but I do care about RL money. I'll buy SP from the market and give that to you, while you give me something irl. I STILL will have "too much" isk, now I also have RL cash.

It's more difficult to persuade people to use RMT when there's an official way (sell plex for isk outright) of doing it. Using SP trading adds some extra variables and steps that will make it easier for people to do/use RMT.

This is a sad joke. Really 500k. for a new player that might seem like a lot. but for someone that has 40mil-80mil points. it will allow you to train (2) level 1 skills from stage 4 to stage 5 lol.

I was really excited at the idea that i would be able to give myself points. Take from one account to remove useless skills that I trained on impulse and apply to a toon that I had a better focus on. But 500k for what 20.00 or 30.00 bucks..

Really ... LAME

Max. speed of SP training is 2,700/hour. 500K SP requires 185 hours of max. training. 185 hours is roughly a quarter of PLEX(720 hours) which is currently valued at about 1.2B. 500K SP should worth at least 300M. Not to mention the time value of 185 hours training period and CCP's extractor cost. A SP package might end up well above 1B in the player market. SP is always in demand, like PLEX, will be a good reserve currency to store value. It might help to reduce the inflation pressure of PLEX. A good news to PLEX users.

Because instant skill point injection has higher value than traditional skill point training.

If a player is presented with two options to increase his skill points by 500,000, first is an instant injection that priced as 300M, second is to use a quarter of PLEX time(185 hours), which is also valued as 300M, to train it up, a player will always choose the instant injection. These two options are not equal. The advantage of instant injection provides additional value to the player. The first option has a premium over the second option.

I suppose since the last time P2W came around it was called MonacleGate, this one ought to be called SPGate, eh?

The market will decide its true value.

What you are all forgetting is to factor in the cost, in Aurum (so ultimately isk --> RL$$), of a player buying the extractor.

The price for the extractor and the calculated cost of training the SP, plus the availability, will determine the cost of the injector. There is a minimum cost to this, which will be significantly higher than 300 mil isk. This is due to the cost of PLEX-and also due to the cost of characters on the CB.

In order to entice players to sell SP, there must be a profitable return. Also, I can see isk devaluation occurring as SP selling will bring more iskies into the game (although CCP will ultimately profit due to aurum and PLEX sales). Devaluation will increase PLEX prices etc etc....expect to see a pretty wild cycle occurring.

Expect also large increases on characters in the CB, who will be valued on the number of SP that can be harvested from them.

Now we have to worry about getting ganked by 1-day old characters who bought millions of skillpoints and billions of isk.

Please rethink this money grabbing strategy. This is a horrible idea and goes against everything that is Eve.

Correct. Before this game breaking change, you were unable to catch up with older players, now you will also be unable to catch up with a lot of newer players.

Apparently this solves a problem.

And I will repeat this for you..

The point is that Eve has always been about consequences. If you choose to train in a certain path there is a consequence (good and bad). Now with the magic of the dollar we can press the respec button. That is not Eve, that is a very clear money grabbing strategy that eliminates the toughness, finality and consequences that made this game great.

Oddly your ability to think deeply is impaired. Time for an injection.

Maybe you didn't read their avert, FREE UPDATES with monthly subscription.

Every feature in EVE has been free since day one until they added the New Eden Store. And how did that end for CCP?

Now a Corp will not have to lower their standards to try and get more people into their Corp. They will simply tell new players that they need to spend $60-80 a month on this game their first few months to get them into a position isk and skill point wise to make themselves worth having around.

Now eager players who want to play the game but want to take short cuts to get into the good game play have the perfect game supported mechanic to get the good gear and skills to fly it, before "they" are even ready.

Now new players will be told they need to spend $50 plus a month for a few months at least before anyone will look at them for joining a Corp.

Now the skill point / isk barrier is simply a real life money barrier.

And now Corps can take the easy way out and simply tell new players, "pay up to join up" instead of "skill up to join up".

I think that will turn many prospective new players away from this game.


But I know, the decision has been made because of the potential new cash flows the company may see...

But they are now "burning the candle from both ends".

The lost cash flows may be greater than the gained ones when it is all said and done.
Sometimes greed and taking or making available the easy way out is not in the best corporate interest.

Having thought about this a bit more, I'm beginning to think that CCP would prefer to implement a direct PLEX-for-skill-points scheme but that they may be too afraid to do that just yet. Prior player backlash over radical feature changes may have taught them to make changes more incrementally to test player acceptance. More importantly, though, gradual change can be a tool to *condition* players to eventually accept something they otherwise might revolt en masse over.

I think that's the target endgame for this feature: direct PLEX-for-skill points. No skill extractor nonsense, no pretense of "experienced players being kind to new players and giving them skill points", etc. This is all just a facade to get players to swallow a bitter pill before making the REAL intended game change in another year or so.

If this is the plan, that would help to explain why they've ignored all of the negative feedback that they received the first time this idea was mentioned a few months ago. I think they've already decided this and are prepared to ignore all player protests until and unless they see a real drop in financial revenue after doing this.

Clearly they don't regard players as customers to be served but rather as sheep to be herded wherever CCP wants them to go.

Truth is they really don't care as long as there are some (no matter how little) who are in favor of this terrabad idea, then that's the green light for CCP.

It is a shame many of the r/e posters openly admit to no longer actually play the game, with many more simply playing skill cues online. This is of course the best group to garner feedback from, isn't it..

Tiberius - Try doing a show all posts on the original r/e thread, Reddit has a very special way of "hiding" posts - If a Dev thread becomes too "anti eve" it is soon "moderated".

first reaction for me was, eve is going pay to win,

it was said before when plex was introduced, but with plex you could have as much isk by selling it in the market, but then you realize that isk does not help you since you still need the skill's for the ship to be able to fly it.

now thanks to ccp skill trading they are making sure you buy more plex, exchange it into isk, buy the skills and be Op in overnight. I don't relly care how long it will be a day, a week or even months,

since the past 9 months to train my skill and be able to fly now the ship i wanted,
when i heard about skill trading, i thought it was a joke, sadly it was not.


they only way for me to see this working is when a person can play around with his/her own skill point made through training, and only be able to extract existing points he/she made and ONLY use it on them self, with cool downs like revamping implants points. no selling it in the market.


in the end at least for me, eve is becoming a pay to win,

it means i can pay for an advantage in the game if you think SP is not an advantage than you are wrong

And you don't even have to earn the ISK to do it - just rack it up on a credit card

- but you know - It's not REALLY pay to win
- cause you know - the skill points were earned by characters at the normal progression rate
- well except multiple training
- But you know - MCT that's not P2W cause it's all on the same account
- cause you know - it's not like you will be able to transfer or sell them
- But you know - you could have already bought each alliance member a Capital pilot at the Bazaar
- cause you know - the Bazaar is pay to win as well
- but you know - adding more pay to win things won't hurt .
- cause you know - when they introduced PLEX you could then buy anything with cash
- well everything except skill points
- cause you know - buying PLEX was pay to win - well apart from skill points t
- so - you know - lets let them also buy SP
- cause - you know - they couldn't buy skill points before
- and you know - skill points were the only thing they couldn't buy
- and - now they can

- but its OK - cause before you get to be called pay to win you would have to be able to buy everything in the game using a credit card.

From the hundreds of replies you made to the opponents on this in the previous blog - pick one about PLEX and one about SP and then reiterate your reply.

You should try WOW - Already did.
I know you would like WOW - You couldn't be more wrong. But hey, we can't go without the 0 effort WoW related replies.
Well maybe not the Permanent Legendary Weapons - You can't buy them in game Considering those have no relation to this we'll just file it under "more BS to distract from the fact that you don't have an answer"

It's correct that SP isn't winning - rather, SP is the barrier to widening the range of in-game activities available. I can fly a Domi, but not an Apoc or Raven. I would like to - not because it gives me an advantage towards winning EVE, but because it gives me an expanded engagement envelope within which I can play.

:O i forgot something !



Nuff said.

I think you did a wonderful job posting hundreds & hundreds of replies expounding your point of view on every possible objection to the proposed trading of Skill Points.

Permanent Legendary Weapons are something you work towards, they are an achievement , a goal.
They are something you cannot buy - unlike skillpoints
- is this a distraction to you maybe to many its the whole point

So you say =

Sub Paid (via CC no less).
Whats wrong paying a normal subscription with my CC ?? ( I do that since i started )

Queued skills for the next several months.
You never queued skills ?

Logged out right now idd. ( Erm i play when i want ? )

Since 2004 late April:
Time Online = 701d 22h 18m
Daily average = 3h 55m 59s

Take 20% off that due to afk, otherwise im active, pvp or marketstuff /research/production.

Still getting SP.
Not sure whats wrong with that ??

EvEboard MECHcore

I play by the rules, nothing wrong with that, so pls tell me where im wrong then.

Just in my opinion this game is going the wrong direction, like it or not, its still my opinion.

"In a proposition about allowing players to sell their SP in game someone says it changes eve being about hard work and experience, and you agreed."
Take notice that i agreed on myself

"But nothing about gaining SP has to do with hard work"

Funny because 11 years ago or so, i did not get any +3 implants for free, i had to rat like crazy in 0.0 to afford me those ( planned in Castor patch anyone ? ), and oh yes they where back then in 05 100m+ each, i could afford it thx to being persistent ratting for days next to pvp and eventually having an officer rat, peeps standing inline at npc stations just after DT as the first batch of +3 implants where released, and oh yes i gained loads more SP with those

So yes instead of buying Plex cards you had to make ingame iskies anyway possible.

And before all the Plex thingy, people tended to "subscribe" to the game.

I bought some few Plex in the past, to give a certain project a kickstart, tbh i wish they never released it, the game is losing its soul.

So why are you here repeatedly thrashing that horse?

"For some time" meaning, "For some time prior to even the first blog's posting date?"

Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread.
This thread is all redundant.

Said my piece, I'm out.

The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.

When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.

He who has the richest members, wins in the alliance wars.

It is also P2W because SP is necessary to unlock parts of this game. Without the skills for marauders, you can't fly them. Now in one day you could join and unlock whatever you want with enough cash.

This might not be P2W in the sense that a newb won't be able to buy 100mil sp and solo win fights. But when it comes to being able to field large doctrine fleets, do profitable PVE or unlock parts of the game reserved to seasoned players, it is clearly P2W.

you just had to wait & you had time to get to grips with what you could fly. Now with this system I feel that CCP are cheepening the experience in a major way.

Okay it seems allright to some, but I'd bet they have -ú-ú to burn in order to get to areas of the game that would have taken ages to reach.

This is the problem it kind of makes the game experience cheep in that you don't live Eve anymore but buy it.

It will just expand the difference between low SP pilots & vetrans, thus creating even more of a divide in new Eden. I feel the sense of acheivability would be weakend for the new scrubs cutting their teeth, it may even fuel debt, theiving & family strife as little johnny needs to have a better range of ships to fly.

I just... well I don't care anymore at this point

The total disconnect CCP has shown with this latest cash grab that no one wanted but CCP.

They don't even have the gall to admit they want this and are pretending players who were paying them for years to access skills who are now seeing their investment in time and money nullified and made insignificant wanted to screw themselves over.

CCP killed the goose that laid the golden egg with this latest debacle out of total ignorance of what everyone was paying them for all these years.

EVE is not terribly fun most of the time.
EVE is not terribly difficult most of the time.

However what EVE does take is time.

EVE is Time personified with spaceships.

Many myself included were willing to invest that time out of the enjoyment of seeing something that takes a long time progress even knowing the rewards were unrewarding and needed to be replaced by new rewards as soon as they were accomplished by waiting more time.

Now all that is over.

The majesty, immutability and insurmountably of time in EVE is lost.

No, you bought time. Time top play a game, have access to servers, experience what they made. The SP were a byproduct of that time but it is not what you bought.

Now they are dividing the sp from the time and something is being lost in the separation. Removing it from the rest of the game and making it a thing and of itself and putting a price tag on that aspect.

If you think you bought sp in the past tell me if you forgot to refill your skill queue did they hand you the extra points that you had bought? No? Shame, really.

m

No you don't. You pay for the ability to log onto the server and play the game.

SP are a retention tool. Their role is (was) to create a need to extend the subscription time, by blocking access to content and lifting that barrier based on player action over time (skilling). That's a key element in EVE's access monetization. Yet by allowing to buy them as a commodity, SP shift from access monetization to activity monetization -SP are bought not to lift a barrier, but to do something ingame onxe the barrier is lfited.

CCP is very literally trading subscription time for a short term income -and they are loading the dice in their favor, obviously. You bet that CCP will earn more money for traded SPs than for "subscription" SPs. Say, a PLEX is worth some 2,000,000 SP, for a base of 5 $/Gé¼ per 500,000 SP (remember, PLEX are more expensive than subscription time). 5 $/Gé¼ yield 900 AUR at the shop, so that's the bare minimum for extractor cost... maybe some will expect that cost be modified by the devaluation of SP when they're transfered to high SP characters, but come on: CCP's cut is from the extraction, not the injection.

So you pay money and lift an access barrier (fly that ship, use that module), yet that doesn't grants access to the game. Access still depends on a subscription... does that sound fair? If extractors and SP yield more money than subscriptions, why keep mandatory subscriptions then?

Some weeks ago, I already pointed how CCP's apparent acceptance of higher activity even if population is lower pointed at the possibility to shift access monetization for activity monetization; and activity monetization is how F2P games work.

F2P games also have high server populations, which need properly scaled hardware. Hardware like, accidentally, Tranqulity III compared to Tranqulity II, that old server which never was used beyond 30% of its capacity.

CCP doing some of the things required to go F2P could be an accident, specially if the development led to naturally higher populations rather than be focused on splitting niches into smaller niches.

But maybe, you know, it's not an accident and my intuition is terribly right.

Have you ever tried PvPing with a lapsed account? Have you ever tried undocking with a lapsed account? How about selling something on the market for isk? What about clone jumping?

Glad I made my point.

Obviously correct. You pay to access the servers. (I can't even believe this is being debated.) You aren't even required to train SP while you're in-game. You could pay for years and never train anything. You do not pay for SP. You pay for time. Wow.

And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?

Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game.

I just resubbed all my accounts 1 week before CCP released this Dev blog. I feel like I've been scammed by CCP.

Since the feedback was so negative and the lack of response by CCP, I thought they would back out of it. Looks like I overestimated CCPs intellectual capabilities.

Since my accounts are paid for (for a little while longer), I intend on abusing the hell out this garbage in ways CCP never imagined.

PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk, so it's a necessary evil. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do).

The skill point thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company.

It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is.

CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.

Good to know that you're a true Eve player afterall, well said.

Goon scrub, once this SP trading goes live then Eve would longer be a game worth paying for because in my eyes (and many others) the game would be dead.

I've seen tons of post explaining this.....what are you reading??

If you really don't know then I say stick around for another 6 months from now and bare witness to the lifeless game that Eve will become when you see 1 week old toons flying around in Marauders. The sense of accomplishment would be gone from Eve forever and if you are a gamer then you should already know that without a sense of accomplishment or evolution then there is no reason to play any game for an extended time. Your interest in such a game would naturally decline over a certain time on it's own.

Asking these questions means you don't understand some of the motivations other people experience.

A sense of accomplishment is important to some of us, and right now you either have to train your toon, or spend cash on a whole character with a name you didn't pick and skills you don't want from the character bazaar. Those hurdles make the character bazaar acceptable to people who think like we do. Sp trading doesn't have near enough hurdles to balance it out, and it's existence will mean that a portion of our accomplishment, our patience in training up our characters, will be devalued.

You don't share the same value set of the people who highly dislike this change, which is why you don't get it. And so you can't see the potential danger here. CCP is thinking like you. And frankly it may comes to some of us organizing and demonstrating to CCP that what they are doing is crossing a line.

fyi I'm not quitting, I don't think this will destroy the game outright, but it's a very very bad move. Personally it reduces my confidence of my friends at CCP that we all owe so much to for making this game.

How do your choices have consequences if you can erase your mistakes?

So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.

And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though!

This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit

Never heard of surveys I take it.

Since when are surveys specifically for customer satisfaction? When did they get demoted to strictly that function?

As far as I can remember surveys have been used to gauge how customers view new concepts. Companies do it all the time.

"I can't fly this ship."

"Stop being poor and buy a skill injector."

"Ugh, **** you guys. I'm going back to playing LoL."

With that simplification of entry level i think they should get rid of t1 stuff as a whole class since we are all focus on better performance where t2 and higher meta are.

Wow, so much Wrong in one post!

Let's see. Gold trading is something every MMO faces. As long as players can trade ingame money, some people will try to buy it for real money. That leads to ~many issues~ and so MMO companies try to curb that behavior.

And in that particular aspect, CCP is top notch. First, CCP's policy on bans is the harshest around. If you sell gold in WoW, that account is banned temporally. On second strike, it's banned forever. Well then, CCP's politics for sellers is to ban ALL ACCOUNTS forever. And buyers get exactly the same fate on second strike. This leads to funny comments from gold traders who can't believe that CCP actually Concordokked all their accounts...

Next, PLEX is the best anti-RMT tool ever developed and implemented by a open trading MMO. PLEX is a legitimate alternative to obtaining ISK for cash, and it works the best when PLEX is high and haves a lot of value, by cutting the profit of sellers. A high PLEX means that gold sellers must give more ISK per dollar, and that's a battle which gold traders have been losing for years. The RMT price for 1 billion ISK has been dropping each year, and currently is so low that some traders are leaving the market because EVE is not profitable enough. Mind you, gold farmer characters have a cost, and losing them all each time CCP catches a seller is a PITA for sellers.

So PLEX has been extremely successful. And the higher it rises, the better it becomes. Bought from CCP, 20 $ used to yield a paltry 350 million ISK... now it's 1.2 billion ISK. As I said, that is driving sellers out of market as CCP Security hits them on both ends: catching them faster and curbing their profit from selling ISK.

(Note: thanks to Nosy Gamer for his blog, whcih is a invalauble resource for those interested in RMT and EVE).

Second, right until now PLEX gave no "pay to win" advantages since all you could buy with ISK was temporary. Stuff that could be destroyed, and in the case of some deep pocket noobs, was destroyed in hilariously awful ways. Right until now, buying PLEX wouldn't give any permanent advantage over not buying it.

Skill trading is going to change that and will turn "successful necessary evils" into "failure inducting evil". There's only so many reasons why a company undertakes such a change, and none of them leads to Success.

Skill trading is going to diminish the value of subscription. Paying a subscription will be a worst option than paying a subscription and buy SPs. That's a fatal hit to the subscription model, but then CCP accidentally bought a new server more than ready to handle F2P crowds.

No, they haven't said a word. But it's what they are doing.

And what, oh what will we do when EVE implements F2P?

Also, I still dont understand why people keep insisting that buying injectors with isk means its not being bought with real money. ALL INJECTORS COME FROM THE NEW EDEN EXCHANGE. NEW EDEN EXCHANGE USES AURUM. AURUM IS BOUGHT WITH PLEX. PLEX IS BOUGHT WITH REAL MONEY.
Apparently someone has to say this at the beginning of every new page for everyone who cant look farther back than the double click they have to do. Its a cash grab, its a bad idea, and it represents CCP breaking a promise made to the players. There is absolutely nothing good about this other than rich kids willing to spend real money can lose battleships faster and impatient people dont have to wait as long for things WORTH waiting for anymore

...How many of you who think this is great for the newbros...

HOWEVER, after the summer of rage with monocles and disgusting leaked dev blogs from CCP developers, CCP swore to never implement a feature that would fundamentally change the game that has to/can be bought with real money. Specifically they promised all items in the NEX would only be vanity items and never advance players who spend real money.

Also I think its just a bad idea to make SP available in any way besides time investment. But you all seem more concerned about the prices and financial implications

I just reached 20M skill points. Now I am feeling that my accomplishment is moot, as skillpoints have been monotized in a blatant cash grab that breaks the promise CCP made (before I joined).

I won't be resubbing or plexing after all. Pay-to-play doesn't mesh with pay-to-win.
I'll go play some F2P game instead, there are lots to choose from.

If SP could only be trained on one account per person then youd be absolutely right. It would be a resource that weakens others in exchange for isk, which would be pretty balanced. but the fact that this game actually encourages having multiple accounts completely negates this point. Not sure why everyone is acting like it will all come from people quitting the game or vets with too many skills they dont use. A vast majority of all SP sold will come from alts who either A) dont need SP or B)were created for the sole purpose of farming SP. If this was just something that could come from older players it wouldnt be as bad, but since any player a week or so in could sell them it is highly abusable.

If you cant see sp farms made with the sole purpose of funneling sp to a main then you are blind. only way to combat that would to make injectors very expensive, which would then negate the "help the newbie" argument

As already addressed, the Bazaar comes with drawbacks. Past history, contacts, a corp list, a character birth date. And it doesnt let you customize your sp exactly how you want it. The "its the same as the bazaar" comment has been done to death and isnt even worth responding anymore, because it isnt. And for the record the bazaar was also a terrible idea but at least it wasnt done through the NEX.

And even if inactive, if your subbing the account thats still time investment, whether you watch the sand fall through the hourglass or not.

Character stripping will probably drive it for the first few months, just because so many players are going to have dusty alts in their closet that have been sitting there unused for a while, or alts with skills that turned out to be useless.

Also the product will be new and exciting to lots of people at first, so the ISK price will probably be very high.

After all the recycling is over, then probably farms will be the dominant source of SP. But it might not turn out to be very profitable to farm for SP and sell it. The reason being that the product you are selling is so uniform and interchangeable that there will be quite a lot of competition bringing down the price.

Doesn't appear they no longer have the confidence to do that anymore so they're opting for the easy way out.

Admittingly with the Large Grid changes along with some of the mentions above, I too thought that CCP still had some creative juices left in their tanks to continue empowering Eve into the future. And then they take a HUGE step backwards by adding this cheap money grab scheme to the game that was well on it's way for a breakthrough..........sigh......

It's like seeing a fabulous castle getting built and when it was nearing it's completion the builders decided to replace some of the expensive materials with cheap materials thinking no one is gonna be able to tell the difference anyways. But the one thing the builders failed to realize is that the cheap materials have a weak foundation that will cause the entire castle to collapse within 18 months compared to lasting another 10-20 years if they continued using the finer materials.

I get it that you're in favor with the rest of the scrubs who fancy the idea of pay2win coming to Eve and want to stay behind your masters at CCP regardless of whether or not of what they're doing to Eve is good for the game or not, but whatever. Going down with a sinking ship is all scrubs are good for so CCP should be happy that players like you are still in the game.

Yeah, and cash for skills should not be one of them,

I have my doubts that this is a a good idea for several reasons:
1) CCP is not being honest with the players about their true agenda
2) CCP is betraying the trust of loyal players who spent years refining their characters by implementing a feature they said they would never do that completely devalues our time of dedication to this game.
3) CCP is not communicating with the community and is ignoring player feedback
4) CCP should be gathering data and taking their time getting the details right with this delicate feature that has been the heart & soul of Eve for over 10 years (if they really need the cash influx) intead of rushing it into the game to suck the cash out of the willing scrubbies pockets ASAP.

If you cannot comprehend why this is a major cause of many concerns it is because:
1)You never went through char develop yourself and bought all if not most of your chars from Eve Bazaar (Eve scrub extraordinaire).
2) You specialize in Char Trades from Eve Bazaar and have stockpiles of chars and see the potential value of SP skyrocketing (personal interest).
3) All you care about is PVP and see the opportunity for hunting clueless fresh meat noobies in T2 ships in abundance (personal interest again).

These are just some I can think up atm, but I'm sure there are tons more. The bottom line is this feature only benefits CCP wallets and players (who're in agreement) personal interest. Aside from personal greed and agendas, the community is still waiting to see how this feature will actually help the game.

I took me 14 months to train my Alts to fly Paladins. And now some scrub can get into one within 1-4 weeks?? Don't know about you but that makes me feel cheated.

Training skills will become meaningless since all you have to do know is buy a skill injector for skilling. Meaning the feeling of progression and evolution will be gone from Eve forever. Don't know about you but for role-playing type players that is a very addictive feature that keeps us in the game.

Suicide gankers can now easily fully train up to fly Catalysts within 7-10 days, making Hi-sec a gankers paradise. I live in hi-sec atm flying Marauders and don't want to see them getting exploded by nooblets who just got into the game one week ago. This means that Corps like Code are gonna be more powerful than ever. Not to mention concorde won't prevent them from forming in mass in any given system. Hi-sec is gonna become Gank-Sec with the implementation of this SP trading garbage.

Some of us did, and challenged both the introduction of both PLEX and the Character Bazaar.

Of them all, I am more forgiving of PLEX as it allows folk, some of whom, for whatever reason, would not be able to afford to play otherwise.

This new mechanic would decidedly more common, yet there is a question whether it constitutes "pay to skip/progress" rather than "pay to win". Depending on which perspective you take either seems justifiable.

People are paying for things you had to put effort and/or time in to getting. The balance seems to be most often heavily skewed in favor of paying in terms of time/$value. Even if you work minimum wage, paying an hour worth of work is almost always faster than an hour of effort in game.

Thanks for stating the obvious but the price of plex yesterday, today or tomorrow doesn't change the reality of what this 'buy skills instantly' is.

Do we really need SP bazar while we have Char bazar?

Actually, you can only buy characters on the character bazaar. Strange but true.

I know. It's weird. It's almost like, at present, skill points are not a property that is separable from the character who owns them.


Nah, I just don't care for equivocation.

Just a Shame that CCP have not thought about it old Vets who have been playing Since alpha/Beta who had to train skills for over 10 years to get to where we are today all the sub fees all the time it took CCP just could not careless And for a New made account and an Eve player just to get it all in less then a 24hrs
it more a done Deal even before CCP posted the first Dev blog as CCP know it a good CashCow and CCP would not say no to money as to CCP money comes first over it paying players

Send an eve mail to every likely unique account and let them vote. But they dont want to know or discuss. They want the money.

which is why they asked new players, who it was ment for.....

How often do they monetize the skill point system?

I'm talking about this specific change. How often have they implemented it?

That is what I'm asking. If you think not, you are not interpreting correctly.

By the end here, you just proved me right. If you cannot see how low cost injectors can artificially inflate PLEX in the short term, then actually DEVALUATE plex in the long run, then I daresay you have not seen as far ahead as I have.

All our would take is a handful of nerds that think it's fun to make a game out of selling the SP they accumulated. They could destroy Eve without ever firing a single missile. Industrialists that never leave station need only plug the best learning implants and sell the injectors as an easy side project. Now add the 1% over and on top of that.

It is reasonable to ask the current players.

Our conversation is over. It is implied that the "answer" they get should be able to affect the decision. It is unlikely that it ever could.

I don't see how that conclusion could have been reached based on that thread.

It's just a cash grab for CCP. The only good thing for Eve is the SP sink.
Unless you are truly wealthy (IRL or IG)...

I'm not going to quit yet, but won't resub at the end of this year.

The isk cost is literally irrelevant to the wealthiest gamers. They will buy and control the market, as SP = power. SP is a force multiplier and will be useful for augmenting the overall might and abilities of the wealthy.

SP will be sunk in the scaled rewards for using the skill packets on characters with mid to high SP.

You misunderstood my first comment. I did not word it well, but I did not mean to imply that wealth would affect the SP sink.
Just that the wealthy will find this change is good for them.

You are under the false, and very short-sighted, presumption that the availability of SP, and its estimated values, are set. You also seem to think it will be a renewable resource that can keep up with demand created by the power blocks alone. You are in error.

Do you realistically believe that people that use plex for Isk will continue to use just plex? It will be easier and cheaper to sell extractors, which brings us to the diminishing availability of plex and its exponential increased demand - or, again, do you both think these SP farms will be paid with real subs? The equations are estimations based on current numbers and not accurate models based on an overwhelming probability of the cheap extractors surpassing plex in value. You say it is impossible, but is it really?

Where have you been dude? You have just explained that loud and clear that SP sell is bad idea.

Is that mean if player B maxed his trading skills by injectors would also be outperformed by player A who trained all those in a standard manner?

In your example with Comets there is pretty clear that both have similar goals of being perfect Comet pilots if i got you right. And perfect means maxed all related skills. And this is why CCP is introducing this SP bazar. And here where the bullshit is hiden. New arrivals those who have no actual experience got false info and interpret SP purchase as a "golden ticket" to perfect conditions. I haven't found any words in Rise's thread where he mentioned that to newbies.

Dear, dear Yaasmine, I assume you have acess to your parents credit card to enable you to buy all the skill points you desire?

If not, then cash for skills will only mean that you will fall even further behind those who started around the same time as you and who do have credit cards.

Oh, and you have several times you have done with this thread, and yet, there you are, still posting.

Kind regards.

Okay fine you wanna get technical, we'll get technical. It's called pay2advance, you happy now. And guess what, it's still breaks the game in the same fashion as pay2win.

Again I see only PVP minded players having this delusion that this pay2advance feature is the same as Char Bazaar.

The difference between SP trading and char bazaar has already been explained countless time, need it be repeated again??

So whatever Dev it was at the end of the 07 show was talking about how he was curious to see how much injectors would go for in game.
This is a deliberately misleading comment because CCP so obviously sets the price. These are not ship skins these are a high demand item therefor they will reach their plex/$$ equivalent.

If CCP sells them for $2.50 they will be 150mil on market, $5 they will be about 300mil, $10 they will be 600mil on market and if they sell for the same price as a plex they will be the same price as a plex in game.

Silly

Well the female/male ratios were out of context, just interesting random stats :) The slot-stats might be used as an input into skill point- pool and generation speculation. Initially I actually did include extractor prices, but in the end making them public wasn't my decision to make.

I just hope that there's a failsafe in place to prevent mass unpenalized injections that sit unallocated in the reserved bank.

Mark my words, if extractors go for sub 500AUR, I shall dub the coming era as, The War of Aeons. Instead of capsuleer wars, you will have little spirits have hover over and possess their specialized pilot and war machine. Perfect Interceptor pilot today, tomorrow my perfect HIC for the cap fight, next week my near perfect Legion.

You will have not only Ship Replacement Programs but also Skill Replacement Programs to keep your T3's top notch the same day as the loss. Injectors are valuable now as a war commodity. Surprise.

[You seem to apply all deductions to yourself. It has nothing to do with you but everything to do with the new pilots or the alts that they can create on the 2nd or 3rd box of a single account, all while training up their main to do whatever it is they wish. The ping goes out, they sign off and back on to their un-paid alt with perfect skills in a ship that is ALWAYS going to be useful. This has changed the landscape of warfare by increasing the value and potential of every new pilot, thus making an already exceptional force even more powerful.

Like I said before, one thing applies to the short term, another thing entirely to the long term. Availability of the injectors will be just stupid. Whey even make an estimation? It is a given. If they are cheap, be ready for the floodgates to open. The lowest they will go for will determined by how valuable they are to the rich and not how many there will be...

...I give it one year until those who plex will not be able to afford the plex, and those that plex will reach a frustration point that they refuse to plex, leading to even higher costs and scarcity. At this point it is the 1% that will truly shine and perhaps be the only source for the SP farming, as their accounts will be paid far in advance that they will have little concern over state of affairs with PLEX economy. If I were they, I would reserve my brain drains and pick up the cheap extractors from every other nub that sells cheaply in the offset.

In conclusion. The fact that we are having a discussion about SP farming as a renewable income stream says more about how you just do not understand that this outcome is bad and that it is unavoidable with a low cost extractor.

It's their ratio in respects to PLEX. If the income is offset by a margin then the viability of SP farming is reduced because more comes out of pocket to sustain the farming. I don't know who it was that thinks there will be many directly paid accounts that are SP farming focused.

Worst case scenario is when plex begins to sell at a loss from when it was purchased. Also, if the extractors sell low, the injectors will be in high demand because of their price point. Now, I don't consider myself Eve rich, but even I will use them if they are 300m. Why not? That, sir, is the ultimate question. Price will dictate demand and any noob that is desperate and impatient will see they are worth the investment of money, even if it is at twice the cost of just waiting on the paid sub. It will still serve its role but not be so widely abused.

It is a force multiplier, and will be used as such.
Now that your competitor(s) are injecting, you will feel compelled to crank up your own fleets to match.
Where 'nearly-perfect' skills were okay you will see 'perfect-skills' required.

As just one example
A new ship is released (ie T3 Destroyer, T2 command, etc). Fleets can now train up as soon as the skillbooks hit the market and gain a significant advantage over their opponents, who are passively training.

I can think of many examples where the wealth to afford SP injectors will be a huge advantage. Stop being so narrow minded...sigh...

I can only speculate about the minimum fixed price, being attractive near half the value of the injector SP against the monthly value of a plex in its respective training time. I don't think I'm wrong to think there will be a consistent buy order of at least 200-250 mil. But unlike any other resource, SP cannot rise or fall to meet demand in any sustained way or by the investment of time or number of farms - especially after plex rises to an untenable level for SP farming. That won't be seen in the short term. I believe supply can keep up with demand initially, due to the large number of SP currently unwanted, unused, or primed for selling. So high demand is driving both the seller and high supply the buyer. And much like petrol in the states being $2 bucks a gallon, it is not a sustainable resource in its present form. Neither will SP be due to its unique association with plex and the training time on which it relies to exist and to also be created through. It is Pizza The Hut devouring its cheap delicious self.

Not really. The price of a subscription can buy you 2700 AUR (3x 900 AUR packages @ 5Gé¼/$) whereas the price of a PLEX can buy you 4035 AUR (1x 3600 AUR package @ 20 Gé¼/$ + 435 AUR bonus),

That's why I estimate that the AUR cost of extractors will be between the 900 AUR package and 1/4 of the second tier package (4035 AUR).

The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.

Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.

Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.

Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?

By your logic, CCP could sell a 'gold ammo blueprint' for AUR, and that wouldn't be PTW because players actually make it.

Not buying the argument

No it is precisely the same. The extractors are sold exclusively by CCP. Without them this whole thing doesn't function (just like the ammo blueprint)

But I can amass the materials required for the ammo print.
Same thing.

Skills are like the materials required for manufacturing an item in a blueprint
The skill extractor is akin to the blueprint itself
the skill injector is the item made

CCP exclusively sells the extractor for AUR.
My analogy is that they could sell blueprints for gold ammo, and it would be the same.

And no, my opinion hasn't changed. But I accept that it is coming no matter what I think.
It would just be more acceptable to make it less P2W

Mulcanis law will allow this new mechanic to be used to benefit the wealthy the most.

The rich kid who buys a character is also buying that characters warts. Such as skills that are useless to the buyer (if you are buying a pvp toon, thos emining skills are useless, for example), employment history, probably a silly as hell name etc etc.

The rich kid that can now buy SP is buying pure advantage with no down side. The Character bazaar is a necessary evil (because people will buy accounts/characters regardless) that just straddles the line of the principle involved and is balanced by it's faults.

SP trading doesn't just cross the line, it erases it.

All those arguments does not change one simple thing: THIS IS A PAY-TO-WIN FEATURE.
First of a kind. You let it now = you will end with tons of them later on.

Two chars, both 2 days old, flying same frigate. One have all level 5 other barely level 2 or 3 for some of them. DPS, EHP of ships will be most likely 2:1. Rich char suggests duel with an argument : we started the same day. Result: frustrated not-so-rich newbee leave the game for some fair alternatives like world of warships (free-to-play, no pay-to-win, matchmaker, instant fights etc...)

Farewell, EVE...

Do we have an official price for skill extractors yet?

Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind

Pure greedy bastards.

I wonder if now the people who were claiming that this will be great for newbies and all us bitter old vets were just complaining for nothing still think this is going to help newbies.

Malcanis's Law comes to mind.

Has anyone done the math on how long will a new pilot take to train his SP's to 5.5m?

Basically the new players will have to train for 5-6 months before they can start buying/injecting skills.

So, is it really for the new players? Not so much as CCP's pocket.

For big alliances and entrenched vets this will be easily affordable, for everyone else this will be prohibitive. Malcanis's Law applies perfectly.

And to make this gift to the big alliances the cost has been to knock down a fundamental pillar of the game.

one question since some one always finds a way to abuse stuff in this game.

Will the injectors account for allocated SP when doing the calculation for how much to add to their pool?
if not then people can just inject tons of injectors at 500 k then apply the sp later hope this wont be the case.

People saying this "isn't for new people" because it's prohibitively expensive .. seriously, you think people can't afford 10-20 bucks to spend on a game in a month? Have you guys even seen any of the other online games out there and the amount of money people in general are quite happy to spend on a game they enjoy?

This system isn't intended for a "new person" to instantly buy themselves to 20 million skillpoints, 40million, etc., that would be very expensive, yes. It's intended for someone to have paid their sub and then think "I could buy a skill injector or two to help myself out this month with my spare cash" and they go and buy a plex, and get a couple injectors for it. It's not that expensive. If you guys think only rich people can spend ten bucks on a bit of 'get ahead' in an online game and are calling CCP names or bitching at them over it then you need to look out at the world a little.

I get it, no matter what price CCP chose you'd whine about it, I know, because "hur dur the EVE is falling, the EVE is falling!" but out here in the real world CCP have priced this very affordably.

Nope, not wiggling out like that. The pricing might not suit you, but it suits me fine. I got some alts I can drain for a nice profit now without having that profit lowered because of the alt's name or the alts lack of trained support skills (which is why I haven't sold those unused alts in the character bazaar).

Welcome to the inevitable outcome of your way of thinking.

I thought any nonzero AUR cost was excessive, but then I remembered there are real labor costs for developing the mechanic, bug fixing, and customer service / ticket support related to the transactions. Discounting those operating costs would be bad accounting just like high sec industrialists who discount their time as "free." It was ambiguous to say "the value is in the SP" but overall I think the AUR cost is fair.

Not so much talking about the price, more talking about your inability to understand the reasons some of us don't like the general idea. Now you will get to live with the consequences of your way of thinking, as the feature you were so gung ho about does nothing you wanted to and benefits ...folks like me who otherwise would not have benefitted.

Like I said, the Character Bazaar was balanced by it's faults and the fact that it is a necessary evil (against illegal character trading). Wise folk understand that trying to legitimize and monetize something that only exists as a necessary evil turns that thing into nothing but an 'actual evil'. In this case, the rich will get richer, the poor and new will suffer (as the gap between them and folks like me that can speed up training with a couple of injectors per month).

You would have seen it coming had you not been so obstinate.

wow those sound like very bad people, it's a good thing ccp didn't listen to them

truly, no-one could have anticipated this

The AUR price is ruinously low. The majority of SP extraction will be currently unneeded SP and it will be sold no matter how little profit is in it, making the injectors little more expensive than extractors long term. The bulk price of 800 AUR/extractor means that with the low margin on injectors, buying injectors is not only faster than buying multiple pilot training certificates, it's cheaper too. The long term effects of this on CCP's revenue and the health of the game will be disastrous, you need to double the AUR price.

The Character Bazaar was implemented by CCP as a means to reduce the 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters on various websites. The logic was that the Character Bazaar controlled by CCP would both reduce this (primary purpose) and provide an income stream for CCP - a by-product of the primary purpose...

I'm not a hater of the bazaar, I find it serve's a unique purpose within the game and its been there for almost as long as the game itself. I suppose if your in game rich enough to transfer characters with plex its an easier method but i'd rather pay -ú17 to transfer a character than the 2 plex method which is equivalent to -ú30 to -ú34.

The gripe with a lot over this is simple one.

The Nexx store will not ever sell anything that will give anyone an in game advantage with the use of monies over time - Yet another lie.

No product can be purchased from the nexx store with aurum that has a like for like value - Its a con. It's like going to buy a computer finding one for -ú1000 then being told at the checkout its actually -ú1150 but we'll give you a credit note for -ú150 you can spend at a later date.

E.G. In wow if i want to transfer a toon its -ú17, If i want a pet or vanity item its -ú6 to -ú9 NOT its -ú22 and we'll stick you -ú4 in your battlenet account for a later date.

The players who have supported this game from the beginning are the ones who are getting shafted.

If they wanted a money grab like i said before they should of just just sold skill point packages to anyone who needed / wanted them without interfering with anything in game, also as Moac Tor suggested some form of skill realigning packages. As a vet i have no need for isk but thats all i can get out of this because the penalty clause within the injectors.

The game is already overwhelming to many new players, now its becomes even more convoluted with this mechanic over simply visiting a page to purchase an upgrade.

I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.

I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.

The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!

For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?

So does this mean you can't use skill trading if you don't use 2 factor authentication?
Or like the login process, 2 factor authentication is an option but not required?

Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk and 13 years of training.

Because you are unable to comprehend. I have already explained in previous topic that training queue was not always there, remaps either. So it has taken efforts to time skills, sometimes you had to wake up in the middle of the night in order to not lose training time. It has taken efforts to time them, to utilize attributes for the most SP/hour because people actually cared about it. It was a contest for 13 years. Just because you do not care does not mean others feels the same.

If you remember ty, there were a few of us who said from the off the price they would be - the destruction of years of dedication - All in the name of the money grab. Everything is coming to fruition beautifully now and as much as i've loved and stayed loyal to this game i hope they ******* choke on this abomination that they have done.

Your story would maybe make sense if Dr Caymus was here since day 1. But he was late 10 days to that, so there are thousands of players who had head start on him, meaning he is top 1 without head start. Why? Cuz he performed better. And even with skill queue you still need to plan and optimize your attributes in order to gain max SP/h all the time.

Regardless of that, if you have a system which works time + effort, of course those who had more time could have more awards. If you change some of those fundamentals after 13 years, you just screw those who have invested their time and efforts in that. And if you start playing the game with such system, it is quite obvious you will not be able to overcome those who invested more time and effort than you., unless you outlast them in the long run. Simple as that.

IAlso on a side note i've found 2 sites offering them for sale and another taking enquiries for them already ..... Black Market much

Seeing as they have been out less than 24 hrs and all i did was google it you can bet there's a hell of a lot more doing it. Point being though it has now added yet another RMT to the growing product line of game items you can purchase externally.

Your lack of knowledge and understanding is visible in every post you make.

He did perform better.

Didn't expect you to resort to smart ass comments but hey ho, I was referring to the fact that it could of been avoided if CCP had just sold the TSP for cash or traded with them for plex the same as transfers on the bazaar.

I spent the afternoon looking into just what is being sold and it's quite an eye opener, they can't take there RMT problem to serious as i've seen tournie ships and special edition ships on offer - Seeing as they're of very limited supply you telling me that they cannot be traced back to a point of origin.

Anything for a quick buck - very sad !!!

How cheap you can pick up plex packs out of game is staggering, you telling me that they can't in some way digitally ID tag them with some form of unique number same as the old cheques used to have - -ú16.99 from CCP 6 euro's from blackmarket traders.

Sorry but there security is dreadful.

You mean a thread where you have failed to provide a single counter argument to the side effects I mentioned and where you twisted out anything you could while digressing? Where you were denying economy laws? Stating that TSP will be cheap and everyone will be able to afford it easily? Where you denied official game and market data? Are you kidding me, get lost :D

Cut for length

Since I have said I will stop replying to trolls etc, this is my last reply to you. I am looking forward your taking things out of context, with lack of ability to look at the whole picture, change POV, lack of comprehensions, knowledge etc to twist it any way you want and claim your forum victory. Cheers!

I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part.

Also, the claims about Freighter ganking harming new players seams to become true now since CODE. already ganked a 9bil ISK Ark of a 4 day old player.

How is that comment even remotely relevant to what I wrote? No one cares where that SP came from. It's on the market now and it has a price tag.

No game double dips like CCP have undertaken with this last patch and primetime hours 27k PCU ive played beta weekends in games with 4 times the playerbase.

Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.

It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.

And sorry, but to just pretend that there is no such side effect while this is actually happening in other threads is plain stupid. So IF you feel the need to share your not so big insights into thing, at least try to address the issues people are talking about?

If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points

Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??

Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base.

You are the one who always brings up tenure, its like your little twist out mechanism then when responded to you bleet like a lamb with a slit throat ..... make your mind up ty.

I'm not on about doom im talking of pure unadulterated greed by CCP - They offered this garbage and most wanted a change as in reallocation of skills, something to speed up training - We get this heap of shite thats ripped the heart out of a game thats stood by it's principles ..... until now.

No. As previously stated its human nature to seek out and try to find the easiest way to do something, CCP have handed it to them on a plate. If it wasn't implemented then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

With the pve being flimsy at best in the game its reliant on it's pvp, without players there is no pvp.

What ? Where were the expectations that this was the norm, it was released as a blog and then nothing not a word for a few months then they released the second one saying they were going ahead with it. Certainly not on general consensus was it adopted, but forced upon.
Loyalty is not there to be traded - maybe that's why you seem to struggle with this.

Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this

it was just pushed through ergo it was forced on us after some 13 years of preaching that they would never alter said system.

Of course now implemented people are going to fully use and abuse it as we've seen. Loyalty is earned over time - hard to get and very easily lost, and certainly not a tradeable commodity something those tools and you don't seem to grasp, i now see why Don feels like he's banging his head against a brick wall speaking to you.

That is not entirely correct. You forget that this is EVE, and any one person MUST presume that any next person will use any and all means provided to him. It is the nature of the game to use this, even if it destroys the game.

our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time
So every single aspect of eve is now monetized, that statement means nothing he even had a lackey write it. He has no integrity neither does CCP as a whole. since the original crew have all but departed your left with the crap to keep on eking out every single penny they can and try to sell it as what everyone wanted.

Even if 99% of the player base refused to use it but the 1% did the whole game now is based around real world transactions to progress, what ever way you paint it the original eve is over now. All this will draw to it is wallet warriors and maybe some ex trialer come to see what its about. There is nothing to work towards anymore, time is irrelevant when you can pay to jump into anything buy anything basically do anything its like being given the /giveall command so long as you get your CC out.

When you don't have to do anything to get everything what is the point of even starting. Remember the old cartoon about eve's learning curve guy looking up a cliff, the new joke one now is sitting in a titan waving a credit card with him shouting 1 day old. The game has gone from having the reputation of being the harshest pvp game out there to flexing a card gets you anything and you'll be lucky to bump into a player out of the main hubs. In such a short space of time its gone from having a good rep for being a hard game to master to almost jokes about how lame its become.

General consensus carries weight and what's being written in forums in alot of places now is that its just gone p2w all stemming from ironbanks stunt.

Another idea that may be worth thinking about, in this context: The introduction of Citadels, the removal of medical clone upgrades, the introduction of Multiple Character Training Certificates, now the skill injectors, all contribute to one and the same thing, at least in the long term: a strong decrease in the need for multiple accounts. CCP, being a corperation which still seeks (and has to seek) ways to make more money, lowers the incentive for subscriptions to be paid.

Am i the only one seeing a potential problem here?

I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way.

Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion).

It is true that each inividual point by itself does not contribute a whole lot to this effect. Subscriptions have been in decline for a while now, and i would have expected to see changes that, in the long term would increase subscriptions. It makes me sad to, instead, see changes that would increase CCP's revenue for a short period of time, only.

All that basic waffle above is irrelevant as all was introduced way before that statement helmar made...

MCTC i've always found useless to be honest, what was the point of having 2 / 3 characters on one account that you can only use 1 at a time, now though its different as you can fully utilize the farming of skill points from each and every spare slot.

There is not legal RMT and illegal RMT either, You have the ToS laid out in the EULA you either abide by the rules set out in said document or you break them by some form of RMT.

Since the statement was made though we have now had this released, pretty much made a mockery of CCP / helmar / the game itself. The skill point is at the very core of the game enabling all aspects of play and you can buy it for cash, it has gone against everything that was held in the highest regard for the game - time investment.

I'm not trying to put any genie back either, that boat sailed as soon as this hit, your trying to gloss it as accessibility which is just BS, It's nothing but pure greed. If it was in anyway to help the game they wouldnt have been the price they are and certainly do not help the average new joe. Don't you remember this yet your still a CCP suckass :

Lordy...once again, no is claiming that cash for skills means that one can win at Eve as there is no win.

BUT, cash for skills is a way for those with more disposable real life money to gain an advantage over those who cannot afford or have no desire to avail themselves of cash for skills.

Like i said all irrelevant as it was prior to the statement or before i even started to play, what does concern me is in that statement he said time over money and rise also said that skill decisions should still have priority over rapid respec's and now they've advertising it as a reskill / respec tool and not even including that it carries penalties

Hang fire here ty, he liquidated some of his alt's which have to be trained the natural way so have been paid for also either by plex or subs - are they not with cash ???

We asked for a way to respec and were told it's inefficient to and now its not mentioning helping the new player its a ****** expensive respecing mechanic - Explain ??

Im trying to find the part about it helping the new player, must be in the small print:

Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK.

Really really small print.

EDIT:
Ok from a marketing stand point and all the horse crap we were fed over this in the original blog don't you think the advert should of atleast led with :

Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is a great way to introduce your friends or corp mates to a speedier introduction into the vast eve universe. you could alternatively customize your skills or make some isk.

but no they went straight for the wallet shot

CCP have Trashed this game

http://eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Stromgren

Ironbank who ever he is 2016 toon over 475M SP. total joke on CCP what a waste of 10 years of paying CCP sub to get to 220mill SP

what's with your playing dumb approach ??
Rise stated that rapid respeccing of skills was not the stated goal now the first line of the ad is respecing of skills, when helmar released his grovel letter about the money and time it drew a line under all that has previously passed, from 2012 clean slate no under handed tactics, MCTC are not under handed no different than having multiple accounts until now where you can use the slots as farming characters to increase the main or sell.

You really don't understand why people feel so disgusted with what CCP have done do you, the time they've taken to create and shape there characters and the money they've spent on it's journey. If the time investiture means nothing then theyre banging there heads trying to explain anything else to someone who has just an analytical approach to the problem.

Goals are hollow when a credit card can be waved at all of them.

Everything you have done in the game now means very little...

Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:

I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.

I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes?

To an extent and in a way your 100% correct .Hence removing the learning skills ... I was bloody furious when they were removed yes ok we got the a refund ...but we weren't refunded for the time it took to train them AFAIK .

The problem here is in the fact that some people can't afford this hypothetical train to Brighton. And as far as they can tell Brighton must be where all the fun is as you can buy your way there faster. By this thinking you must be missing out on the fun if you can't afford the train ticket and have to slog your way there in the meantime.

Without SP the fun was in the journey, it had to be as there was no other choice. SP trading has turned this journey into an inconvenience for those who can't afford the train tickets but want to get to Brighton at the same time as those who can.

SP trading will change new players (and older players) perception of what EvE is. In my opinion (based on how I play the game) EvE lost something of itself with SP trading and now the genie is out of the bottle it can't get that back.

Except it is more like they can pay to rent motorbikes and lances, then impale you as they go past toward the same finish line.

The trouble is though ty, since CCP Muppet hit with the sov changes everything has seemed like a downgrade than an upgrade and now we have this almost f2p base model that we have to pay for each month plus all the premium advancement mechanisms that to be quite honest are certainly not micro transactions by way of the pricing they carry.
Somebody has already paid ccp to originally train the 500k x 4 = a sub or plex.
They now charge you whats equivalent to another 30 days of game time to extract 4 units, am i missing something here or is that not what you classed as double dipping. Then we have the sellers now banging each unit out for a profit - to which i remember people in the other thread saying pffft i'd of given them away

A far cry from when you just paid for 30 days of game time and got stuck in.

That was very eloquently put, what i asked you is it double dipping a some what jaded client base, also with the advancement mechanics in full swing now doesn't it seem more like a f2p model.

Books.

I dont know if you intentionally missed my point here or not, The free 2 play model offers its playerbase the opportunity to gather certain resource(s) at a set level per day allowing you access to build, create or develop, If you want to then speed it up by way of said resources, coins, materials you can by purchasing. Apart from the fact we are still paying monthly for EvE the whole game now is based around the freeplay design.

No, It's new but its always going to be charging the seller twice for the privilege of moving those skill points even more so when you take into account the diminishing returns as the player pool of skill points will only diminish leaving farming a viable restocking source. The aurum sale is only for so long then they will rise in price not lessen.

Can be.
Use your imagination and pretend you have more friends than your enemy.

Maybe your confused because GW2 is buy to play not f2p.

In an interview with Polygon earlier this week to prepare for the announcement, O'Brien told us that this shift to free for the base game doesn't change the studio's core approach buy-to-play, a model he has "been championing since the original Guild Wars a decade ago."

You have to purchase the product in question and register it, once completed you then play online at no additional cost.

They are giving the base game of GW2 away for free now because the new expansion which you have to buy is being released, you need the base game to be able to play the expansion.

"We've seen cases in the industry where a game is buy-to-play, it comes out with expansion packs, and you want to get your friends into the game, but they can't just buy the latest thing and play with you," said O'Brien. "You have to buy the prerequisites. You have to buy the base game and each expansion pack just to be qualified to buy the latest. It's just a barrier to entry. Guild Wars 2 is the game about tearing down those barriers and making it easy to play with your friends."

EDIT:
"We're not using the phrase 'free-to-play' for Guild Wars 2," O'Brien said. "Some people will call it that. But there's that stigma that it's a different business model. We're not actually doing that. We're not going back and changing the way the game is monetized. We're not going to make it so it starts free but has its hand out asking for money.

They are objects that cost ISK.
Either try and drive someone to being poor or try and limit their access. You can do this as a consequence of other more "fun" actions.

No because there is no content gate all is available to play you have restrictions on when you can join the world pvp and have less inventory space on the base model only but on purchasing the expansion all restrictions are lifted. CCP have gradually over the years turned there pay to play model into some kind of cash sucking hybrid, we still have to pay to play but everything that you do in it's base play design can now be speeded up by purchasing in game.

I take it you don't realise who Mike O'brien is then seeing as he's just one person ??

Heart of thrones is not a content gate, Once you purchase the expansion your free account gets upgraded to a full access core account unlocking the world pvp for lower level characters and your inventory is maxxed. What don't you possibly understand about Buy 2 play lol.

"This is a buy-to-play game, and we are making the core game free."

"LetGÇÖs make it so that anybody who wants to check out Guild Wars 2 can check out Guild Wars 2. And can really check out the game, not some free-to-play monetised version of the game."

Seeing as you struggle with whats happening in eve it's hardly surprising you dont grasp basic business models

There is a huge difference between a game that was buy 2 play being released to all free as opposed to a free 2 play game. You say to me semantics lol.

It wasnt an additional monetized version, gem store has been there all the time and you can't go to it and oh look instant max toon or buy the latest best flavour of anything - XP boosters - tomes - scrolls arn't just from the store either theyre from event weeks / weekends holiday specials, Freebies for doing things in game ....... not having the hand always out, we want more style.

Yeah takes alot of determination to crack open the wallet and type them numbers into the website to buy your plex !!!

Im so pleased you mentioned activity because i will point you back to one of the first things i said to you, what is the point of even starting something when with no effort you can have everything in the game ?

Free-to-play (F2P) refers to video games which give players access to a significant portion of their content without paying. There are several kinds of free-to-play games, but the most common is based on the freemium software model. For freemium games, users are granted access to a fully functional game, but must pay microtransactions to access additional content. Free-to-play can be contrasted with pay-to-play, in which payment is required before using a service for the first time.

I don't have a problem with people paying money to progress faster towards the point of a game that they consider to be enjoyable. Now, keep in mind, "Pay-to-Progress" is different from "Pay to Win", where cash shops will have items or perks that can't be obtained without paying. I do not agree with a "Pay-to-Win" model.

It goes hand-in-hand with the work-ethic philosophy of "time = money".

GÇó Let's say you make $15 per hour at your job.
GÇó Now, lets say it takes 5 hours to grind the equivalency of $15 worth of in-game items.
GÇó You are better off grinding your job for 1 hour to buy those items instead of grinding the game for 5 hours.
GÇó This way, you can play the game for the remaining 4 hours instead of grinding it.

CCP don't seem to agree with you

Since the collapse of the EVE Gate, humans in New Eden have longed for never-ending piles of ISK. CCP recognizes this demand, and provides PLEX GÇô as a completely legal option for turning your real life cash into precious space bucks.

Source

No this is the whole point you just don't grasp, they're not even unabashed about the whole affair that your so vehemently defending as something other than a huge cash grab and making lame excuses to pass it off as anything but what it actually is.

There is no presupposition to there actions and they have sat by watching all this unfold probably laughing regardless of it's implications knowing that once your hooked the first thing your going to need is an easy access route to isk and now skill points. So they're certainly not going to be letting RMT take a big slice of what has probably been the largest generator of cash they have produced even out stripping the plex.

I think if anyone is in need of a reality check its you.
Edit : Ever noticed that when you get to something that your silver tongued approach can't explain it's way out of you cry semantics.